Undivided: Encounters with America
Transcript: Interview with Ambassador Richard C. Barkley
Berlin, March 20, 2009
Ambassador Barkley: [inaudible] Rathaus were there, I would not have recognized this as actually being Berlin-Mitte. First of all, we went to the Museumsinsel, and of course everything has been renovated or is being renovated, and then after that we walked around behind and I don't exactly know what that area is and, o my God, everywhere there were ... and everything was beautifully reconstructed or rebuilt or newly built. There were little Kneipen everywhere and they were all from international sorts of areas, Vietnamese and Chinese and all of those things. It's had the feeling, on one hand, of being in sort of a student quarter because there were young people out and things like that. It was quite elegant and typically very tidy and put together very beautifully. I just came away from the impression... Then we walked actually on down to the Hauptbahnhof and that's a gorgeous building. Of course it's very modern, but it's very, very beautiful, and we did take the S-Bahn and the U-Bahn, and of course everything works beautifully. I just came away sort of staggered by how well ordered things were, how solid the construction of everything was, how beautifully it looked. It's really a gorgeous, gorgeous city.
Peter Claussen: One of the things we are trying to do with this sort of video archive if you will is bring back some sense of what was there before. What do you recall from your time as ambassador, your time in Berlin before that some of this perhaps played out in contrast to chief among your memories?
Ambassador Barkley: You may, of course, not only as time as I was ambassador when I was in West-Berlin ... that was way back in the early seventies. Friedrichstrasse was always, of course, one of the most important areas because it was Checkpoint Charlie. I went through etc. You saw all of these buildings there and, of course, just wouldn't recognize it now. I mean Friedrichstrasse is very elegant. It almost looks like a Parisian, high-quality arrondissement somewhere. It's particularly beautiful. I used to walk down Friedrichstrasse all the way down to Schiffbauerdamm, and of course the Brecht Theater was there, and Ganimed was the restaurant I believe we used to go to. That's become really almost an artist's quarter it seems to me - really rather beautiful. The other thing I think that struck me is Unter den Linden. I don't know what exactly has happened in that period of time, whether they built new buildings or refurbished them or put on new facades or whatever it is but it's truly a beautiful, beautiful street now. You have the feeling that actually the center of the city has moved or shifted right into Berlin-Mitte where it used to be years ago. Last night, also, I had the first chance to go through Potsdamer Platz and I think wasn't that the most... the busiest street before in Wilhelmina Germany or something like that. The, of course it's busy and sort of flashes at you with the lights flashing and things. It's really quite beautiful but it's about as far from the rather drab, modest GDR background I recall. When, being in the GDR, I had the feeling, often coming out of West-Berlin, that you went from the garish lights into a much more, you know, understated area, and you sometimes came home, and you thought that you had been in wonderland, and all of a sudden reality struck again. It wasn't bad but it was just so considerably different than anything else. And of course the fact that the Wall is gone is just an absolutely remarkable difference. Even where we sit was no man's land. It was just a remarkable feeling to see all of this to the point where I actually had a little bit of trouble. I had to pay attention to go and find our old embassy again, and, I mean, you know, you go by these streets and they all look very elegant. The other thing, I think, that struck me is, of course, all of the kind of international shops that are everywhere. I was sort of staggered to see that there is a Dunkin Doughnuts right over here on Pariser Platz sort of... I don't know exactly what that says about things, but it was an interesting development. It's just become, I think, a world-class city, and I don't know many cities I would compare it with. I think it's, in terms of solidity of construction and elegance of design, it's unique.
Peter Claussen: Are there any people that you recall from 20 years ago that you either met or would like to meet or would wish to meet, either on this trip or on another? Are there individuals that you recall working with at the embassy or as part of the GDR officialdom or other contacts?
Ambassador Barkley: Of course the embassy, the construct of the embassy is always that you have American officials who work in there, and then you have nationals. In our case we had third-country people because of the security concerns in East Berlin and I am happy that I have seen several of them who seem to have transferred to the embassy successfully and it's a little bit like old home week. In terms of American officials, I do meet them on occasion. I ran into Reno Hornish (?) the other day. We were at the swearing-in of the little American ambassador to Turkey, and he showed up, and he and his wife, Leslie, and I hadn't seen them in over 20 years and it was beautiful when we realized that we recognized each other, and things came back very quickly. I do see John Kornblum and J.D. Bindenagel sort of frequently. So I do see some people. In terms of East Germans, I was a little surprised that a fellow I knew showed up in Washington about five or six years after the Fall of the Wall, and he was with a journalist team that was out visiting the United States for something, and I invited him out for dinner to the house, and he's a nice fellow, and I am embarrassed to say that I don't exactly recall his name right now, but that's beside the point. Of course one of the people I worked with most closely who saved our bacon on a lot of occasions was Wolfgang Vogel. I heard last night that he recently passed away, and of course he was a very controversial fellow, but the fact was, he helped us in some very dire situations, and so I was grateful for that. Most of the officials, I think, the East German officials of that time, if they are not gone, have no idea where they are. Of course, those that were there after the Wall fell and formed the new government in preparation for unification, people like Markus Meckel etc, they are still around and I look forward to seeing them.
Peter Claussen: As a participant Germany is this year celebrating its history, 60/20, the 60th anniversary of the founding of the Bundesrepublik and the 20th anniversary of the Fall of the Wall. As a participant in that history do you have many thoughts on how Germany can incorporate, what lessons Germany might take from that history?
Ambassador Barkley: It's a very difficult question to answer. In the first place, I hadn't been back except extremely briefly at one time. Of course I think the most impressive thing is what happens physically on the ground. I am also aware, very aware from other contacts, for example we had a nanny for our young daughter. That time we visited her very briefly. She lived in Köpenick and in some of the areas further out; you don't get the sense that there have been remarkable changes, not like in the center of Berlin and things like that. And it's quite clear that there is still a sizable distinction between the East and the West in terms of attitudes and how things have developed. I think the Ossi-Wessi concept is still alive from what I can tell. I look forward to going to Leipzig and Dresden. I understand once again that the physical plants in those areas have improved dramatically, but whether there has been significant change in attitudes, I don't know. When the embassy closed, of course, what happened is, our embassy in Bonn basically took a whole thing over, and I recall at that time talking to the people who were coming in, and saying, you know, you must be a little bit cautious because in that 45 years of a different kind of existence they developed somewhat of a different mental state, and I said there were considerable psychological differences between the two sides. On the other hand, I mean, let's face it. It was the courage of the East German people that made the change. It wasn't the leadership, it wasn't the secret police, it was the people and, in my mind, they were actually heroic. They did what they had to do to do this. Of course, the time was right for it. The major contending powers decided not to intervene, and particularly that was true of the Soviet Union, and there were many reasons for that, but nonetheless it's interesting, and I think there is a big question whether in fact you would call it a revolution that took place or not. In my mind, if you look upon a revolution as a dramatic shift in what was going on societally, then one indeed did take place, and it was taking place in East Germany by East Germans, and as far as I know, that probably the only time that's ever happened in German history, a rather remarkable development. And perhaps the East German people, the people, the man in the street has never gotten sufficient credit for what he actually did.
John Self: Was there one incident, Mr. Ambassador, where you saw something changing in the period that you were here?
Ambassador Barkley: (Video:) Yes. On October 1, my wife and I and my sister and her little, little baby were in Dresden. We were on our way to Prague to spend the weekend with Shirley Temple-Black, and it was my habit to always take a long walk in the evening. So we had dinner, and I took a long walk and crossed the bridge over the Elbe. There were a lot of people because it was a Sunday; there were a lot of people out. It turned out this was exactly the same day that the train came. A lot of the people who had sought asylum in the West German embassy in Prague were brought through, and they came right through Dresden. The presumption was, as a lot of people were out, were sort of curious to see this whole event take place and were downtown in that area. While I was on the bridge, there were lots of people out on the bridge, and I looked over, and on the far side of the river, there was a road, and along that road came maybe 40 different trucks loaded with Volkspolizisten. And it looked quite clearly they came up and they drove up into that area at the Semperoper and set up a base of operations, obviously fearful that there might be some disturbances, too many people on the street or whatever it was. I don't pretend to know what was in their minds, but I watched that happen. I recall there was a young man, who was with his wife walking along, and he looked down and he said: God, that looks ugly. That's what he said: It looks ugly. But there was a certain crackle in the air, and I had been in South Africa just before and I knew when demonstrations and people on the street were unhappy somehow. There is a crackle in the air, and it was there, and I went back and I told my family we are going back to Berlin immediately. And we did, but that incident struck me rather poignantly, and of course it happened right before the 40th anniversary of ... celebrated the 40th anniversary, which was a very, very big affair for the government at that time. Of course the next day the traditional groups that had met in the church - they called it the Montagsandacht - were larger in number. I don't know whether they were emboldened by what was going on or saw that, maybe, the police had not come down on them hard. I am not exactly sure what it was but it happened, and of course a week later the numbers increased absolutely dramatically, I think, both in Dresden and Leipzig. I wasn't in those areas at that time, but the embassy had people out, and they were reporting fully. At the same time on that same night of October, I believe it was, there were many, many more groups in East Berlin, you could see them, little groups around the corner or something. They were very tentative, obviously afraid. They didn‘t know what was going on. (Video:) I remember for example coming home from the gala final evening at the Palast der Republik where, of course, they were celebrating with the diplomatic corps etc. and all the high rollers and the leaders from different countries in Eastern Europe assembled, and of course Honecker was the host, and Gorbechev was there and Ceaucsescu, Jaruselski, all of them. They are all gone now. The only one that was out there, by the way, this was [inaudible] Daniel Ortega, who is still around. All the rest of them, including Jassir Arafat, who was there, are gone. As we came out that day, that evening, we had to walk to our cars. I was walking with the Finnish ambassador, and my wife and I and he and his wife, and we walked through a group, you know, the East Germans were particularly good at organizing things, and they had large numbers of people out. But when I walked by, of course, I have a very high forehead, and some of them might have thought I was Gorbachev, not exactly sure about that but when we walked by they broke into cheers, and I looked at Urho, this guy Tanner [inaudible], the Finnish ambassador, he says: Oh, they think you are Gorbachev. I am not quite sure of that, but nonetheless it showed that there are even among the well-organized phalanxes of the party there was a lot of popularity towards Gorbachev's policies in the hope that they would probably be visited on them too some day. That was interesting. (Video:) Then I have one other case I think I'll never forget. I decided to have my daughter, who was born in West Berlin, baptized in East Berlin. So we got in touch with the pastor at the Pankower Dorfkirche, a fellow by the name of Werner Katschell, one of those remarkable fellows, who I think 600 years of his family had been pastors at this little church one time or another. And we invited a number of people, East and West, to this baptism, which turned into ... this was, by the way, on the 15th of October, right, and just before the collapse of the Honecker government, but nonetheless, things were in the air and Katschell's son had gone out to West Germany via Hungary and Austria, and he gave a very political lecture about having a look across the wall to see his son, who had left, and the hope that the Wall would collapse. It was time and all of these things. It was really a remarkable event and at the occasion my daughter's baptism became the sort of political statement from the church I thought was quite remarkable. And of course the fact that there were a lot of officials, some officials anyway, from the apparatus there, it must have been rather telling that he had the courage at the time to do this. I don't know they'd ever done it before or not. Those are some of the things I remember.
Peter Claussen: Do you have anything that, since these are personal recollections, not just government statements, do you have anything you regret? Do you have anything as you look back on those times there you think, you know, something else I could have done, something else I wish I had done differently? Do you know what I mean?
Ambassador Barkley: I am sure. I am human, and there are lots of things that, of course, you think you could have done better. However, I think it is very important to realize, you know, our role in this whole thing was not a particularly active role. It was a matter of basically counseling Washington on how, first of all, it's developing, and next of course, on what things we think we should avoid and we should be doing. I think actually we did most of the things that we wanted to do. One of the things, for example, and I am talking about not only that particular period that led up to Honecker's demise and subsequently then Krenz's demise, and then of course the Modrow government and later on the broader base government of Modrow that led into the election of March 18. In all of those things, I don't think that we made any terrible missteps. We were very close on occasion. We were convinced, and I think probably rightly so, is the ability of this thing to play out peacefully, and I can't tell you that I saw that unification would be the immediate result of this. I don't think anybody did. So that they didn't in West Germany either because, as you might recall, I think it was in January of that time, Chancellor Kohl said we should have a "Vertragsgemeinschaft" between the two. He wasn't at that time envisioning unification. That actually came out of the East German political process. But during that time, there were a lot of things that were going on. The Commandant in West Berlin was a very active man, and sometimes his activities exceeded his judgement. And I considered, at that time it was extremely important for us to hold onto the principles and practices that we had had throughout the Cold War, on who you can talk to and who you can't talk to etc. He violated almost all of those to the point where I had to intervene to get him back under control, which actually we were able to do, but, so, at that time, saw about the danger, although it was the kind of danger I think that German experts were horrified by that maybe most people didn't really recognize. Later in the process, for example, it was very important, as the Soviets held the key, not to embarrass them or provoke them into anything that would be unwise or that would lead to something that could have been disastrous. The Soviets stayed in garrison through that entire time out at Karlshorst, but they had sizable military forces. And of course the German army also, which had no domestic obligations, but if the Soviets had called on them they would have intervened too, could have upset the whole thing. So it was really important that we tread lightly there. Happily both President Bush and Secretary Baker were fully, fully aware of this and took all measures that it didn't happen. But there were many occasions where we came very close, if we had not been alert. I don't know what the result would have been but the long and short of it is I suppose there were certain things that we could have done better, but I can't tell you precisely what they are.
John Self: This is basically enough, but is there anything else that you think that you'd like to say?
Ambassador Barkley: (Video:) You know, when I look back at the time that first I arrived and some of these things are clearly in my speech of today, the first one is that I remember actually almost exactly twenty years ago. It was in March 1989, and Nina and I, my wife and I were walking in the garden, and I looked over, and I said, you know, this is probably the most boring country I've ever been in. Well, now the problem was, of course, we didn't foresee all of these things coming, and, in fact, they hadn't started to come then. It looked like Honecker was very much in control. I'd called on almost all the members of the Politbüro. When I was out in the countryside I didn't see, although I started to get an ear full from academics etc. about the lack of glasnost, openness and the restrictions on that. They didn't talk so much about perestroika because they thought they had gone through the sort of "Erneuerung" in the course of the year, so that they didn't need to do that. But perestroika was very big in certain quarters. But you never got that when you talked to the officials, you know, the old line communists that many of them came out of the Soviet Union, had been there during the war, etc. And, of course, I read "Neues Deutschland," what had to be the dullest newspaper on the face of the globe. Well, after I said that, things really started moving, actually within two months, when the Austrians and the Hungarians opened their borders. That's when things began to unravel. And in the summer, other things happened, particularly when Honecker got ill and disappeared from the scene, and they seemed to be rudderless for a while. Anyway, it was, several other things I remember... (Video:) I do recall a very interesting thing I did. It has nothing to do actually with the events. I was of course... When I came to the GDR, like every Ambassador, I would have liked to have seen some progress in our bilateral relationship, and there was no interest at all in Washington. There were initial steps to try and eliminate some of the problems with Jewish reparations and other things. They wanted the most favorite nation treatment and things like that. Anyway, there were limited possibilities. After I arrived, it was coming towards the holiday season, and I did something that we had done in other countries. And I went over to the PX and got a number of Butterball turkeys. I sent one to Honecker, and I sent one to Fischer, and one to [inaudible], and I didn't hear a thing in return. New Year's Day they traditionally had a reception for the diplomatic corps. So I went to the reception and was sitting there, and all of a sudden the chief of protocol came over and said, "Mr. Honecker would like to see you." Well, I went over, and, of course, you know, this is a very small group, and the idea that the American ambassador, but he knew our relations with East Germany were probably as bad as any nation represented there, and as I walked over to talk to Honecker all eyes were on us. He said to me, he said, "You know, I never properly thanked you, but you sent this turkey for the holidays, and I just want to tell you that that's probably the most delicious thing I have ever eaten." I don't know what possessed me, but I said, "You know, Herr Honecker, those turkeys are the Marilyn Monroe of turkeys, you know they are all breasts and they are beautiful." And he broke into laughter, well, you know, the whole area was very, very silent at that, and then he added something that I thought was really quite enlightening. He said, "You know, the problem I had is the bird was too big for my oven in my residence, and I had to send it down to that restaurant on Gendarmenmarkt" - I don't know what the name of that restaurant was anymore, but I think it was the biggest one - "to have it cooked. He said but it was worth it." Now, for some reason, that little incident is still very much in my mind. I mean, I don't think I'd ever seen Honecker laugh before. He wasn't an outrageously unpleasant man, I mean, he was of that character at that time, but that incident is somewhat stuck in my mind.
Peter Claussen: The sort of kitchen diplomacy.
Ambassador Barkley: Yeah, right.